New fueling option for the Explorer - Port Injection

[WFO-TSi]

Without being on the High Performance Explorer ST Facebook group I'm guessing I am the last one to find out about the Port Injection Kit that EMS is offering.

EMS 3.0L Ford Explorer EcoBoost Port Injection Kit – Engineered Motorsport Solutions (emsinc-tn.com)

With it costing less than Nostrum's Stage 1 Bundle and flowing more than their Stage 3 Bundle...what's the downside?

The factory charge pipe has a lengthy silicone coupler connecting it to the throttle body, so I speculate you wouldn't even need a modified charge pipe despite the increased plenum height. It's probably also only a matter of time before our favorite tuners have mastered its integration.

Thoughts?

 

[mitchellj22]

I’m not an expert, or even knowledgeable about an upgrade like this, but am definitely interested. Would love some more of us who are more mechanically experienced to sound off. From what I do know is that the mod on its face seems like a no-brainer. It’s only slightly more expensive than the cost of getting the intake valves walnut blasted (I was quoted just over $1,100 by the only local shop I’m aware that is capable of this type of service). Instead of doing that I’d rather just add port injection, and if I can increase my fuel flow that way then that’s an added bonus. More fuel, more power, cleaner engine. I’m not seeing any downsides here. I can’t believe no one has responded to your post.

I however seem to be the ONLY person (correct me if I’m wrong, I’d prefer to not be the only person) who is interested in doing something like this but only strictly running premium gasoline. Chemistry is not for me and I’m not going to f*** around with mixing ethanol. I’d rather keep it simple and just pump premium fuel in my ride. I don’t see why we can’t still get a tune that increases power with the HPFP without running weird ethanol concoctions. Like if I’m adding a larger intake and larger exhaust I need to add more fuel right??

Why are HPFP ONLY recommended around here if we’re running e50 or whatever it’s called. Why are they only needed for these crazy fuel blends. Would they not also be needed for 93 or 91 tuned vehicles with other upgrades in order to achieve more power than the basic tune?

I’d really like to know. But at minimum if our OEM fuel pumps ARE able to handle premium fuel on a performance tune by say Goose or ZFG, and they can’t increase power with HPFP for whatever reason for those of us who aren’t mixing fuel, AT LEAST I’ll have piece of mind with the fuel delivery and not have to pay thousands periodically to have my intake valves walnut blasted (which is practically required for high performance DI engines).

 

[UNBROKEN]

I’m not an expert, or even knowledgeable about an upgrade like this, but am definitely interested. Would love some more of us who are more mechanically experienced to sound off. From what I do know is that the mod on its face seems like a no-brainer. It’s only slightly more expensive than the cost of getting the intake valves walnut blasted (I was quoted just over $1,100 by the only local shop I’m aware that is capable of this type of service). Instead of doing that I’d rather just add port injection, and if I can increase my fuel flow that way then that’s an added bonus. More fuel, more power, cleaner engine. I’m not seeing any downsides here. I can’t believe no one has responded to your post.

I however seem to be the ONLY person (correct me if I’m wrong, I’d prefer to not be the only person) who is interested in doing something like this but only strictly running premium gasoline. Chemistry is not for me and I’m not going to f*** around with mixing ethanol. I’d rather keep it simple and just pump premium fuel in my ride. I don’t see why we can’t still get a tune that increases power with the HPFP without running weird ethanol concoctions. Like if I’m adding a larger intake and larger exhaust I need to add more fuel right??

Why are HPFP ONLY recommended around here if we’re running e50 or whatever it’s called. Why are they only needed for these crazy fuel blends. Would they not also be needed for 93 or 91 tuned vehicles with other upgrades in order to achieve more power than the basic tune?

I’d really like to know. But at minimum if our OEM fuel pumps ARE able to handle premium fuel on a performance tune by say Goose or ZFG, and they can’t increase power with HPFP for whatever reason for those of us who aren’t mixing fuel, AT LEAST I’ll have piece of mind with the fuel delivery and not have to pay thousands periodically to have my intake valves walnut blasted (which is practically required for high performance DI engines).

You have some misunderstandings on the subject. You don’t need to add fuel with a simple CAI or exhaust swap and you don’t need to add anything for an E50 tune except ethanol. The bigger HPFP and injectors are for running E60- straight E85.

 

[2020FordRaptor]

I’m not an expert, or even knowledgeable about an upgrade like this, but am definitely interested. Would love some more of us who are more mechanically experienced to sound off. From what I do know is that the mod on its face seems like a no-brainer. It’s only slightly more expensive than the cost of getting the intake valves walnut blasted (I was quoted just over $1,100 by the only local shop I’m aware that is capable of this type of service). Instead of doing that I’d rather just add port injection, and if I can increase my fuel flow that way then that’s an added bonus. More fuel, more power, cleaner engine. I’m not seeing any downsides here. I can’t believe no one has responded to your post.

I however seem to be the ONLY person (correct me if I’m wrong, I’d prefer to not be the only person) who is interested in doing something like this but only strictly running premium gasoline. Chemistry is not for me and I’m not going to f*** around with mixing ethanol. I’d rather keep it simple and just pump premium fuel in my ride. I don’t see why we can’t still get a tune that increases power with the HPFP without running weird ethanol concoctions. Like if I’m adding a larger intake and larger exhaust I need to add more fuel right??

Why are HPFP ONLY recommended around here if we’re running e50 or whatever it’s called. Why are they only needed for these crazy fuel blends. Would they not also be needed for 93 or 91 tuned vehicles with other upgrades in order to achieve more power than the basic tune?

I’d really like to know. But at minimum if our OEM fuel pumps ARE able to handle premium fuel on a performance tune by say Goose or ZFG, and they can’t increase power with HPFP for whatever reason for those of us who aren’t mixing fuel, AT LEAST I’ll have piece of mind with the fuel delivery and not have to pay thousands periodically to have my intake valves walnut blasted (which is practically required for high performance DI engines).

You misunderstand quite a bit of this. Any tuner will tune for whatever mods you have for pump gas, no tuner every said otherwise. You do not need more fueling for a simple intake and exhaust (which don’t help power anyway), the stock fuel system does just fine, and you are limited by your fuel, not the fuel system. The OEM pump and injectors handle premium fuel without breaking a sweat, don’t know where you heard otherwise.

As far as carbon buildup, that only becomes a problem after a LOT of miles, and even then you had to have been using crappy fuel constantly for that to become a problem. With a catch can, Top Tier Fuel, and proper maintenance, carbon buildup isn’t a problem.

 

[wifeys-ST]

I’m not an expert, or even knowledgeable about an upgrade like this, but am definitely interested. Would love some more of us who are more mechanically experienced to sound off. From what I do know is that the mod on its face seems like a no-brainer. It’s only slightly more expensive than the cost of getting the intake valves walnut blasted (I was quoted just over $1,100 by the only local shop I’m aware that is capable of this type of service). Instead of doing that I’d rather just add port injection, and if I can increase my fuel flow that way then that’s an added bonus. More fuel, more power, cleaner engine. I’m not seeing any downsides here. I can’t believe no one has responded to your post.

I however seem to be the ONLY person (correct me if I’m wrong, I’d prefer to not be the only person) who is interested in doing something like this but only strictly running premium gasoline. Chemistry is not for me and I’m not going to f*** around with mixing ethanol. I’d rather keep it simple and just pump premium fuel in my ride. I don’t see why we can’t still get a tune that increases power with the HPFP without running weird ethanol concoctions. Like if I’m adding a larger intake and larger exhaust I need to add more fuel right??

Why are HPFP ONLY recommended around here if we’re running e50 or whatever it’s called. Why are they only needed for these crazy fuel blends. Would they not also be needed for 93 or 91 tuned vehicles with other upgrades in order to achieve more power than the basic tune?

I’d really like to know. But at minimum if our OEM fuel pumps ARE able to handle premium fuel on a performance tune by say Goose or ZFG, and they can’t increase power with HPFP for whatever reason for those of us who aren’t mixing fuel, AT LEAST I’ll have piece of mind with the fuel delivery and not have to pay thousands periodically to have my intake valves walnut blasted (which is practically required for high performance DI engines).

I don’t think the previous responses were helpful so I’ll try. For optimal power you need a specific ratio of air to fuel. With premium gas, you can achieve that ratio easily with the factory fuel system. Adding more premium fuel will not add power, it will just reduce efficiency by making the engine run rich. Basically fuel just dumping out the exhaust. Where the extra power comes from is by advancing timing more. If you try advancing timing too far with premium gas you will get knock and can cause damage. With ethanal you can push the timing much further safely without knock which is where the big gain in power comes from. The downside of ethanol is that you need more volume of ethanol to have the same energy as premium gas. Which is why the stock fuel system is limited to e50. Only after upgrading the fuel system can you run e85 to flow more fuel.

 

[mitchellj22]

I don’t think the previous responses were helpful so I’ll try. For optimal power you need a specific ratio of air to fuel. With premium gas, you can achieve that ratio easily with the factory fuel system. Adding more premium fuel will not add power, it will just reduce efficiency by making the engine run rich. Basically fuel just dumping out the exhaust. Where the extra power comes from is by advancing timing more. If you try advancing timing too far with premium gas you will get knock and can cause damage. With ethanal you can push the timing much further safely without knock which is where the big gain in power comes from. The downside of ethanol is that you need more volume of ethanol to have the same energy as premium gas. Which is why the stock fuel system is limited to e50. Only after upgrading the fuel system can you run e85 to flow more fuel.

Thank you, that was much more helpful. Based off that information however, I'd still like to know if at any point a higher fuel flow rate would still be beneficial on a 93 octane-fed vehicle. There are many high performance vehicles that run on premium pump gas and not some necessary ethanol concoction. If I put on every bolt-on mod available in the air department (such as bigger intake, intercooler, downpipes, exhaust, turbos) plus a tune, are higher pressure fuel pumps still not necessary? Because I always thought to produce more power, if you increase the air flow, you need to increase the fuel rate to keep ratios within a certain spec to maximize performance efficiency. What's the most power capable in this vehicle if I refuse to use any other fuel than premium gas? Please tell me now.

Is there any point that this port injection kit becomes beneficial? And could I at least use it to improve engine dynamics and reliability if I can't actually increase power with it? Still however, I feel like to create more power you need more fuel. So, I'm still kind of confused how it can't help performance-wise even if I just use premium fuel and not an ethanol concoction. Are the oem pumps really that capable?

 

[wifeys-ST]

Thank you, that was much more helpful. Based off that information however, I'd still like to know if at any point a higher fuel flow rate would still be beneficial on a 93 octane-fed vehicle. There are many high performance vehicles that run on premium pump gas and not some necessary ethanol concoction. If I put on every bolt-on mod available in the air department (such as bigger intake, intercooler, downpipes, exhaust, turbos) plus a tune, are higher pressure fuel pumps still not necessary? Because I always thought to produce more power, if you increase the air flow, you need to increase the fuel rate to keep ratios within a certain spec to maximize performance efficiency. What's the most power capable in this vehicle if I refuse to use any other fuel than premium gas? Please tell me now.

Is there any point that this port injection kit becomes beneficial? And could I at least use it to improve engine dynamics and reliability if I can't actually increase power with it? Still however, I feel like to create more power you need more fuel. So, I'm still kind of confused how it can't help performance-wise even if I just use premium fuel and not an ethanol concoction. Are the oem pumps really that capable?

I am not a tuner so take this with a grain of salt. But these 3L already breathe really well from the factory. Upgrading exhaust and intake and charge pipes and even downpipes only gain marginal power when tuned on ethanol but I think those upgrades are at an almost negligible impact to the power output even when tuned on pump gas.

The reason is because with all of the boost, even with upgraded intercooler, the forced air is going to increase temperatures in the combustion chamber and pump gas begins to knock. So what can you do to stop that? You can retard timing more. Oh but then you just decreased power output. So lets add more fuel? Oh well now you’re not combusting the extra fuel and it’s dumping out the exhaust. So let’s add boost? Okay now you’re knocking again.
The whole point of tuning is finding that perfect balance. Ethonol and higher ocrane in general resists knocking and also has a cooling effect to keep things cool. So now you can add more timing, add more boost etc.

The whole point of the fuel system upgrades is this: for every 1 gallon of pump gas, you need something like 1.3 gallons of e85 to make the same horsepower. I dont know the exact numbers but basically as an example to make 500hp on pump gas, you need 90% injector duty cycle, and to make 500hp on e85 you would need like 117% duty cycle. And say you want to make 600hp on e85 now you need 140% duty cycle. And of course everything over 100% is impossible so you need the fuel upgrades. Hope this helps

 

[wifeys-ST]

I am not a tuner so take this with a grain of salt. But these 3L already breathe really well from the factory. Upgrading exhaust and intake and charge pipes and even downpipes only gain marginal power when tuned on ethanol but I think those upgrades are at an almost negligible impact to the power output even when tuned on pump gas.

The reason is because with all of the boost, even with upgraded intercooler, the forced air is going to increase temperatures in the combustion chamber and pump gas begins to knock. So what can you do to stop that? You can retard timing more. Oh but then you just decreased power output. So lets add more fuel? Oh well now you’re not combusting the extra fuel and it’s dumping out the exhaust. So let’s add boost? Okay now you’re knocking again.
The whole point of tuning is finding that perfect balance. Ethonol and higher ocrane in general resists knocking and also has a cooling effect to keep things cool. So now you can add more timing, add more boost etc.

The whole point of the fuel system upgrades is this: for every 1 gallon of pump gas, you need something like 1.3 gallons of e85 to make the same horsepower. I dont know the exact numbers but basically as an example to make 500hp on pump gas, you need 90% injector duty cycle, and to make 500hp on e85 you would need like 117% duty cycle. And say you want to make 600hp on e85 now you need 140% duty cycle. And of course everything over 100% is impossible so you need the fuel upgrades. Hope this helps

There’s also the fact that tuners don’t want to have a reputation of hurting engines. And pump gas is unreliable. Octane ratings can vary and why blow am engine making 500hp on pump when you can make 600 safely on ethanol.

 

[2020FordRaptor]

Thank you, that was much more helpful. Based off that information however, I'd still like to know if at any point a higher fuel flow rate would still be beneficial on a 93 octane-fed vehicle. There are many high performance vehicles that run on premium pump gas and not some necessary ethanol concoction. If I put on every bolt-on mod available in the air department (such as bigger intake, intercooler, downpipes, exhaust, turbos) plus a tune, are higher pressure fuel pumps still not necessary? Because I always thought to produce more power, if you increase the air flow, you need to increase the fuel rate to keep ratios within a certain spec to maximize performance efficiency. What's the most power capable in this vehicle if I refuse to use any other fuel than premium gas? Please tell me now.

Is there any point that this port injection kit becomes beneficial? And could I at least use it to improve engine dynamics and reliability if I can't actually increase power with it? Still however, I feel like to create more power you need more fuel. So, I'm still kind of confused how it can't help performance-wise even if I just use premium fuel and not an ethanol concoction. Are the oem pumps really that capable?

@wifeys-ST explained it perfectly, can’t put it much better then he did. You are limited by the very low (relatively speaking) knock resistance with pump gas. The stock fuel system is more then capable to supply the extra fuel needed for the extra airflow, with pump gas that is. You can’t really get past 500awhp with pump gas, solely for how @wifeys-ST summarized:

The reason is because with all of the boost, even with upgraded intercooler, the forced air is going to increase temperatures in the combustion chamber and pump gas begins to knock. So what can you do to stop that? You can retard timing more. Oh but then you just decreased power output. So let’s add more fuel? Oh well now you’re not combusting the extra fuel and it’s dumping out the exhaust. So let’s add boost? Okay now you’re knocking again.
The whole point of tuning is finding that perfect balance. Ethonol and higher ocrane in general resists knocking and also has a cooling effect to keep things cool. So now you can add more timing, add more boost etc.

 

[wifeys-ST]

@wifeys-ST explained it perfectly, can’t put it much better then he did. You are limited by the very low (relatively speaking) knock resistance with pump gas. The stock fuel system is more then capable to supply the extra fuel needed for the extra airflow, with pump gas that is. You can’t really get past 500awhp with pump gas, solely for how @wifeys-ST summarized:

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding @mitchellj22 concerns about mixing, it is really not complicated at all. Tuners like ZFG are very good about configuring the ECU to detect and prevent knock and learn the fuel mixture over time. So if you have a 93 tune, you can mix up to e30 and make significantly more power. 93 already is already e10. So if you add a little bit of e85 to the tank the ecu will learn it will safely make more power.

To get e30 you add 73.5% 93 (e10) and 26.5% e85. it’s not complicated and the mix doesn’t have to be precise. Aim for e25 if you’re stressed about it. I’m not tuned yet but many people say e30 on a 93 tune makes significantly more noticeable power than you would expect.

 

[Flyman]

Thank you posters for the above tuning information. Great data for those of us who are novices in the tuning world. The fuel info is gold.
Thanks again.

 

[UNBROKEN]

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding @mitchellj22 concerns about mixing, it is really not complicated at all. Tuners like ZFG are very good about configuring the ECU to detect and prevent knock and learn the fuel mixture over time. So if you have a 93 tune, you can mix up to e30 and make significantly more power. 93 already is already e10. So if you add a little bit of e85 to the tank the ecu will learn it will safely make more power.

To get e30 you add 70% 93 and 30% e85. it’s not complicated and the mix doesn’t have to be precise. Aim for e25 if you’re stressed about it. I’m not tuned yet but many people say e30 on a 93 tune makes significantly more noticeable power than you would expect.

It’s not 70/30% for E30…more like 26.5% using E10 93. 35% for ethanol free 93.
Use the E85 Mix app…it’s spot on every time.

 

[wifeys-ST]

It’s not 70/30% for E30…more like 26.5% using E10 93. 35% for ethanol free 93.
Use the E85 Mix app…it’s spot on every time. View attachment 31326

Thanks, I edited my post.

 

[jwuonog]

Pros: This will keep your intake valves clean, can probably make more power than upgrading the HPFP and DI injectors

Cons: You are adding a somewhat complex fuel system, the fuel controller has to be tuned for separately, there is a risk since many components of this system could potentially fail. It would only take 1 or 2 WOT pulls with a malfunctioning PI system to do some catastrophic damage.

 

[2020FordRaptor]

Pros: This will keep your intake valves clean, can probably make more power than upgrading the HPFP and DI injectors

Cons: You are adding a somewhat complex fuel system, the fuel controller has to be tuned for separately, there is a risk since many components of this system could potentially fail. It would only take 1 or 2 WOT pulls with a malfunctioning PI system to do some catastrophic damage.

Very true, why I’m not a fan of meth injection.

 

[Suprawill1]

While some of these explanations are sound, there are some I have to disagree with.
I had posted earlier about using a port injection system for more fuel but the replies weren't favorable.

As previously mentioned, tuning would have to be revised from the norm.
It would be better for high end power but would take away economic street drivability.

With stock engine parts (excluding the obvious IC swap) there is much power to be had.
The stock exhaust will allow for 700HP. The stock CAI will cover all the boost these stock turbos have. You will run out of turbo before you max the stock fuel system on pump gas.
This 3L twin turbo engine is equipped with an auto octane sensing so it is less apt to knock. Instead, it will reduce power to prevent anything catastrophic.
Of course, that function can be circumvented by inept tuning or undesirable modifications.

It is easier/cheaper to tune with ethanol for more power on a stock setup however, 93 octane will get you much more than 500HP.
I myself didn't want to deal with E85 gas pumps that are no longer E85 but a in range of E52 - E83%. For someone always on the run, having to test each pump for ethanol percentage
can be very inconvenient in conjunction with calculating what's in the tank to arrive at your desired percentage. Even at that, there's a +/- differential.
In this case, having an inline ethanol sensor will at least let you know what's in your tank after the calculations.

I can't really say I'm a FBO because I don't have hot side pipes but with 93 octane, this ST is throwing down a bit more than 600HP at the crank. (ZFG projection)
I'm running a stock exhaust system. Mods include:
CVF IC
S&B CAI
ZFG DMS 93 Tune
CVF Cold Pipe
CRP Stage 5 Turbos
CVF Catted DPs

With the stock fuel system, the ST is able to run up to E50. If I add this to my 93 oct fuel, I'll be getting around 650 AWHP which will equate to more than 700HP at the crank.
So, take your pick. You can go FBO, ethanol or both. In any event, there's serious HP to be had on a stock fuel system.