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Rear end damage

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Well, you can't count the 2.3L Explorers because they are supposed to have the 3 bolt. Some 20% of Explorers are ST reportedly, so that's about 50k out there for MY2021. Only a handful have failed per anecdotal social media reports. The actual number could be far higher, just like those who have had transmissions replaced. Nobody knows the exact number. Your non-enthusiast that this would happen to just knows their drivetrain failed and Ford fixed it under warranty. They don't care about subframe mount counts or posting it on social media. So yeah, you go ahead and drive without a care knowing Ford will fix it if it fails. But guess what?...there will come a time when your warranty will expire. You are basically forced to buy an ESP because if it does fail, because you're talking potentially thousands in repair costs. And every time you take that family trip, why should you have to worry about being stranded hundreds of miles from home just because Ford cheaped out. The fact that they are now replacing failed 3 bolts with a 4 bolt is basically an admission of guilt in my book. Hey, if it means anything, I have a 4 bolt MY2020 and am madder than heck about this!
My guess this would fall under powertrain which is 5/60k warranty (since this is the mount point for a powertrain component). We can complain all we want, but until the people that have had the failures report it to the NHTSA nothing will happen. I wonder if we all could report it to them??? Since some say the VIN calls for the 4 bolt.
 

st8

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Not sure why you would purchase your own, just let it break if it does. There has been only a handful of failures, Im sure there are close to 200k explorers out there with the 3 bolt. Also the handful that were broken were all fixed under warranty even though they were tuned.
Agreed. I think it would take some serious abuse to get one of these to break. I eventually plan to tune mine and I’m not going to worry about it. I don’t plan on racing mine, going off-road or anything like that. Just around the town occasional fast spurts.

I think the whole messed up part is no communication from ford regarding the change. It’s unacceptable. Owners should know when and why these changes occurs. Ones that have such potential safety implications. I’m guessing we are such in a minority here and 98% of people have no such idea. So ford thinks they can just get away with it.
Having said all of this, next time I go in, I will press my dealer on this. I’m already having something else investigated on my car with ford and corporate. The subframe will be next.
 

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FORZDA3

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….I think the whole messed up part is no communication from ford regarding the change. It’s unacceptable. Owners should know when and why these changes occurs. Ones that have such potential safety implications.
………….I’m guessing we are such in a minority here and 98% of people have no such idea. So ford thinks they can just get away with it……..
Yeah, their best people to provide all production info are their exceptional shop technicians, what relative few they have. Yes, there are some really good Ford Techs out there, I know a few (not personally) that have a great rep on the specific vehicle forums and literal word-of-mouth. A seasoned, long-time Master Tech should know everything up-to-date about their line of vehicles.

….I don’t think the parts swap was thoroughly reviewed by the Design Engineering section of Ford. Oh well…

@TMac also made a good comment about what we DON’T know about this “issue”. However, we DO know that the Ford Parts systems says a bunch(?) of us have the wrong part. Will it definitely fail? Maybe, maybe not, but I went back to my(ZFG) 93 tune vs the E50. The E50 tune is brutal at WOT!
 

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ghostfranklin

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@TMac it is a shitty move by Ford period, and no doubt a cost saving move. "Ford has tweaked the price of the 2022 Explorer ST version by $2000 making it more affordable."

Whether it was actually cheaper or just kept production going who knows. I would have much rather waited given the option for four bolt. You pointed out we (people that modify our vehicles) represent a tiny minority of their overall sales which is also true.

Ford's Q1 2021 sales were 65,244 units ~25% being STs yielding 16,311. If 1% of us mod that means 163 warranty claims vs 1.95M saved assuming it shaved $30. Even if a warranty claim is 10k a pop they still save over 300k. But based on the value engineering I would imagine they saved more than $30 on the 3 bolt subframe which would only widen that profit margin.

I don't think people are whining, I think people are justifiably disappointed that Ford decided to value engineer a 60k flagship "performance" vehicle. I do agree with you adding power comes with what it comes with, which is why I'm biting the bullet like Forzda3 and just doing it right from the jump.

@ZookaRoo I'm taking care of it now because I don't feel like dealing with the bs. It'll break at the most inconvenient time and be a hassle (additional damage to drivetrain, tow, warranty claim and process, quality of workmanship by ford dealer when doing the work, not being able to go w/e I was headed, etc etc) even if the warranty claim goes smoothly.
 

Cruising68

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I''m not gonna lie, I'm thinking about a subframe. On the fence for sure. I've blown a motor at 150mph, broken suspension parts at speed. It's not pretty. I am a risk taker but a calculated risk taker I like to think. A little insurance goes a long way sometimes. I've got a diffy stiffy but I think I will take a look when I take delivery and see what I think. I plan on HP upgrades and beating on my Explorer and the last thing I need is a big car bill or a hospital bill :) I've got too many of those thank you.
 

TMac

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@ghostfranklin Thanks for doing the research, but there's just a couple of things I'd like to clarify from your post- The first statement seems to be attributed to me- I didn't make either of those assertions.

Second, the number of Ford STs is supposedly 20% of sales, so if your numbers are right then the number of STs is more likely around 13k units. If the subframe bolt and dampener were about $30 that would mean a savings of around $390k. Using your numbers and adjusting only for STs and not the other three bolt systems at 1% failure rate, that's around 130 claims. Based on your projection of the potential destruction at $10k for driveshafts, diffs, half shafts, and labor that would equal $1.3M in warranty claims. We won't even talk about the fact that in the worst case, such a problem could result in consumer deaths and all the negatives that implies. So I'm not sure that it's a "Ford just tried to save a few bucks" scenario.

Ford, like every other manufacturer is certainly in the business to make money. When this problem was first pointed out, I thought it could be attributed to the pandemic and supply issues. I wasn't convinced it was being done purposely by Ford to save a few bucks. Now that we see that 2022s are still coming with the 3 bolt frame, it has to be attributed to engineering deciding that there was no need for additional bracing based on the specs.
 

st8

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@ghostfranklin Thanks for doing the research, but there's just a couple of things I'd like to clarify from your post- The first statement seems to be attributed to me- I didn't make either of those assertions.

Second, the number of Ford STs is supposedly 20% of sales, so if your numbers are right then the number of STs is more likely around 13k units. If the subframe bolt and dampener were about $30 that would mean a savings of around $390k. Using your numbers and adjusting only for STs and not the other three bolt systems at 1% failure rate, that's around 130 claims. Based on your projection of the potential destruction at $10k for driveshafts, diffs, half shafts, and labor that would equal $1.3M in warranty claims. We won't even talk about the fact that in the worst case, such a problem could result in consumer deaths and all the negatives that implies. So I'm not sure that it's a "Ford just tried to save a few bucks" scenario.

Ford, like every other manufacturer is certainly in the business to make money. When this problem was first pointed out, I thought it could be attributed to the pandemic and supply issues. I wasn't convinced it was being done purposely by Ford to save a few bucks. Now that we see that 2022s are still coming with the 3 bolt frame, it has to be attributed to engineering deciding that there was no need for additional bracing based on the specs.
I want to think you’re right and they just felt 4 was unnecessary. But then why do aviators with our same engine come with the 4 bolt design?
 

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^^^ and the PIU all seem to have it too
 

TMac

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I wouldn't dispute that the 4 bolt design is most likely stronger. As far as Aviators, they can also have the electric unit, so can produce a lot more torque and perhaps there's even an NVH aspect. And as far as PIU- everything on that unit is over engineered within reason and for a reason. I'll say it one last time, cuz I'm done with this thread....if you are going to add an additional 20-25% more torque/hp than came from the factory, deal with it.
 

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The Aviators and PIUs have to support the additional immediately available torque from Hybrid platform? Just a guess.
 

st8

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The Aviators and PIUs have to support the additional immediately available torque from Hybrid platform? Just a guess.
Not all of the aviators have the electric platform. There are versions with identical engine as the st.
I’m guessing since all the aviators are on the same line, they just give all of them the 4 bolt design.
 

Cdubya

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The Aviators and PIUs have to support the additional immediately available torque from Hybrid platform? Just a guess.
If i recall, the hybrid Explorer subframe (not including PIU or aviators) is a 3 bolt.
 

I Bleed Ford Blue

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The hybrid EX is close to the 2.3 in power so the 3 bolt is more than adequate.
 

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The Aviators and PIUs have to support the additional immediately available torque from Hybrid platform? Just a guess.
no, PIU available as hybrid, NA and turbo, 3L turbo most powerful, nobody I know likes the hybrid
 

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Yes.
 

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I want to think you’re right and they just felt 4 was unnecessary. But then why do aviators with our same engine come with the 4 bolt design?
Aviators also have a different suspension set-up. Most of the time as well, top of line Luxury brands get the best of the best.
 

ghostfranklin

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LOL, so the Ford dealer cannot find the part Cross Member Assembly - Ford (MB5Z-5035-A). According to their parts dept MB5Z-5035-A is on back order and has been "replaced" in the notes section by MB5Z-5035-E (3 bolt sub). Checking with Tasca now per FORDZA's recommendation otherwise I'll guess I'll just have to play Russian Roulette with the driveline and hope my warranty claim doesn't get voided out due to mods like the other members that have posted and Ford foots the bill. What an awesome experience.
 

ghostfranklin

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Hi @FORZDA3 Tasca has MB5Z-5035-A on back order with no ETA. The local dealer doesn't have it. Any suggestions before I just let Jesus take the wheel? I'm all for Ford footing the bill but like TMac said trying to bite the bullet and get out in front of it was the intention here.
 

Dale5403

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Hi @FORZDA3 Tasca has MB5Z-5035-A on back order with no ETA. The local dealer doesn't have it. Any suggestions before I just let Jesus take the wheel? I'm all for Ford footing the bill but like TMac said trying to bite the bullet and get out in front of it was the intention here.
This website let me add the part to an order. https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-parts/ford-cross-member-assembly-mb5z5035a
I didn't complete the order but it might be worth a try. Good luck.
 

FORZDA3

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LOL, so the Ford dealer cannot find the part Cross Member Assembly - Ford (MB5Z-5035-A). According to their parts dept MB5Z-5035-A is on back order and has been "replaced" in the notes section by MB5Z-5035-E (3 bolt sub). Checking with Tasca now per FORDZA's recommendation otherwise I'll guess I'll just have to play Russian Roulette with the driveline and hope my warranty claim doesn't get voided out due to mods like the other members that have posted and Ford foots the bill. What an awesome experience.

STOP! I think you have missed the details in my earlier posts. The MB5Z-5035-E is the latest version of the 4-bolt subframe for all applications that require 4-bolts. I have the correct 4-bolt part, that I ordered through TascaParts.com, sitting here (well, outside under my RV). Order the MB5Z-5035-E as it is the correct 4-bolt part. Note it took a long while to get it, so you won’t find one with persistence. Just order and wait…
 

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