• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Explorer ST Forum and Explorer ST community dedicated to Explorer ST owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the Explorer ST Forum today!

I Went to the Dyno - ZFG 93 & E50

Messages
197
Reactions
203
Location
Marinette, WI, USA
#21
certainly not logarithmic but its also not a fixed value (i.e., 68hp) either. its more a baseline fixed value plus a percentage for additional hp added. the way to think of it is that friction isn't the only variable here. Rotational and fixed masses play a part as well. To spin a 50lb. drum to 400rpm in 1 minute takes a lot less energy than to spin the same drum to 400rpm in 30 seconds. In other words to get all rotational masses in the driveline (gears, shafts, wheels, brake rotors, etc.) up to speed takes energy, and it takes MORE energy to get them to speed more quickly. The resistance goes up simply because the gears are spinning with greater pressure (normal force), so there is more friction per unit time, which means more work must be done to overcome it. Now, there is no way that there would be over 200hp worth of of frictional losses just like TMac points out in the above post but there WILL be more than the 68hp loss at stock power levels.
There's a lot more factors here than you would think one thing that could cause drivetrain loss to climb could be something like an open style torque converter. Which as you throw more and more horsepower at it becomes less and less efficient, that can drive your losses up significantly as you add more power.

That's really not the case with 10r80 because it is a lock up style torque converter and a relatively efficient transmission in fact if we were dynoing only through the rear wheels I would expect to see stock numbers around 360.

In this case you're probably on the right track saying that if the drivetrain loss is 68 horsepower it's probably going to stay relatively the same. But I don't think through any of this anybody was saying anything about crank horsepower numbers because in my opinion nobody really gives crap about crank horsepower numbers.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
 

TMac

Active Member
Messages
530
Reactions
272
Location
Knoxville, TN
#22
certainly not logarithmic but its also not a fixed value (i.e., 68hp) either. its more a baseline fixed value plus a percentage for additional hp added. the way to think of it is that friction isn't the only variable here. Rotational and fixed masses play a part as well. To spin a 50lb. drum to 400rpm in 1 minute takes a lot less energy than to spin the same drum to 400rpm in 30 seconds. In other words to get all rotational masses in the driveline (gears, shafts, wheels, brake rotors, etc.) up to speed takes energy, and it takes MORE energy to get them to speed more quickly. The resistance goes up simply because the gears are spinning with greater pressure (normal force), so there is more friction per unit time, which means more work must be done to overcome it. Now, there is no way that there would be over 200hp worth of of frictional losses just like TMac points out in the above post but there WILL be more than the 68hp loss at stock power levels.
Thanks so much for the input, and clearly you're right- force (hp) is being measured by mass and time. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, on a chassis dyno, the hp is being measured by whatever means that particular dyno is using (weighted rollers, water pumps, magnetic, etc). So the hp is a function of calculations which do not include the mass of the drive train of the vehicle. So when people calculate drive train loss, they're simply taking advertised crank hp and subtracting dyno hp.
Since both advertised crank hp is varying (and perhaps under or overinflated), the drive train loss is who knows?

In any case, if you get a 100 hp gain over stock on the same dyno, you got 100hp extra. Using percentages only ends up inflating crank hp figures.

T
 
Messages
197
Reactions
203
Location
Marinette, WI, USA
#23
Thanks so much for the input, and clearly you're right- force (hp) is being measured by mass and time. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, on a chassis dyno, the hp is being measured by whatever means that particular dyno is using (weighted rollers, water pumps, magnetic, etc). So the hp is a function of calculations which do not include the mass of the drive train of the vehicle. So when people calculate drive train loss, they're simply taking advertised crank hp and subtracting dyno hp.
Since both advertised crank hp is varying (and perhaps under or overinflated), the drive train loss is who knows?

In any case, if you get a 100 hp gain over stock on the same dyno, you got 100hp extra. Using percentages only ends up inflating crank hp figures.

T
Again I'm not sure I see your point a hundred horsepower is a hundred horsepower it's made 100 more horsepower then it did before at wheels. Nobody really cares what it makes up the crank remember that Dyno is just a tool.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
 

zdubyadubya

Active Member
Messages
649
Reactions
451
Location
Ellicott City, MD, USA
#24
Everyone here is pretty much correct and speaking the same language--I admit that my analogy was overly simplified. Like everyone is saying; a 100hp dyno increase is a 100hp dyno increase. I think the point TMac was making is that the % increase claims or crank hp claims made by tuners (not you ZFG) are dumb because they are inaccurate. Which everyone agrees with. Personally I even stretch that futher--I dislike dynos for the same reason. 0-60 and 60-120 are the two measurements I care about the most because those tell me how the "butt dyno" is gonna feel. ;-)
 

TMac

Active Member
Messages
530
Reactions
272
Location
Knoxville, TN
#25
Not to belabor the point but...assume you take your stock st to the AWD dyno. 332hp,right. Now let's bolt on the smallest, lightest wheels that will fit over the brakes (SSRs, Volks...) add in the lowest profile baloney skins you can fit and put it back on the dyno. What happens? Note, we didn't alter the engine hp at all. Guess what, more hp, and less drive train loss.

But I sure hope all of you who are modifying will continue to post dynos that show us stock vs modified! I'm really looking forward to that first individual (Unbroken?) to put a couple Garrett G25 550s, or a single GTX 4294rs on one of these.
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#26
Here is the High Res file...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Question about your zfg 93 octane tune. I have the same tune and under wot acceleration when shifting into 2 I get a audible jolt sound from the dash. Do you get the same thing? I imagine it's from the front tires biting. Just curious

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#27
Question about your zfg 93 octane tune. I have the same tune and under wot acceleration when shifting into 2 I get a audible jolt sound from the dash. Do you get the same thing? I imagine it's from the front tires biting. Just curious

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
Are you talking in Sport? Normal? All the time? Launching hard? Need more info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#28
Are you talking in Sport? Normal? All the time? Launching hard? Need more info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It did it the other day in normal mode. It will always does it in sport under a full throttle launch

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#29
It did it the other day in normal mode. It will always does it in sport under a full throttle launch

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
Shifting in Sport under WOT should be quick and solid. If you are getting hard shifts in Normal 1-2, talk to Adam @ZFG. He should be able to adjust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#30
Shifting in Sport under WOT should be quick and solid. If you are getting hard shifts in Normal 1-2, talk to Adam @ZFG. He should be able to adjust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks. I did just email him. The shifts are very quick I just wanted to know if anyone else heard this noise.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

Fuzzytip1

New Member
Messages
12
Reactions
13
Location
Nc
#31
so its been a year, im assuming no issues at all on your tune? Everything running great? I just ordered Thermal exhaust , Springs and the whipple cooler. National Speed here in NC is doing the install......will be getting a zfg tune after I get it back.
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#32
so its been a year, im assuming no issues at all on your tune? Everything running great? I just ordered Thermal exhaust , Springs and the whipple cooler. National Speed here in NC is doing the install......will be getting a zfg tune after I get it back.
Yep! Still going strong. Was on the E50 tune recently for a few weeks. Had some rewards I needed to burn at a different brand station so flipped back to 93. 93 is strong, but that E50 tune is AMAZING!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#34
I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#35
I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
Do a little bit of everything! Hard, easy, slow speed, hard decel. Basically drive it normal. Not too much of any one thing.

Excellent troubleshooting. HPTuners can do a KAM reset/relearn in the newest version of Scanner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#36
Do a little bit of everything! Hard, easy, slow speed, hard decel. Basically drive it normal. Not too much of any one thing.

Excellent troubleshooting. HPTuners can do a KAM reset/relearn in the newest version of Scanner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In your opinion does any of this seem like a transmission problem or just in the learning process? I can't remember it doing this in stock form. Is this something Adam can fix if the learning doesn't cure it? Thanks for the help.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#37
In your opinion does any of this seem like a transmission problem or just in the learning process? I can't remember it doing this in stock form. Is this something Adam can fix if the learning doesn't cure it? Thanks for the help.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
Actually can be both.

These trans are weak point. Completely stock they can have issues. Mine was better on Adam’s tunes than stock, but eventually had issues even tuned. Had solenoid and a clutch pack replaced at like 5K, no issues since, and I am at 15K now. Mine was a 7-6 downshift, that was HARSH!

Yes, he can tweak it if still an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Messages
46
Reactions
11
Location
Hull, GA, USA
#38
Actually can be both.

These trans are weak point. Completely stock they can have issues. Mine was better on Adam’s tunes than stock, but eventually had issues even tuned. Had solenoid and a clutch pack replaced at like 5K, no issues since, and I am at 15K now. Mine was a 7-6 downshift, that was HARSH!

Yes, he can tweak it if still an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Did the dealer find your tune or did they not care?

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
 

LokiWolf

Active Member
Messages
525
Reactions
260
Location
Henrico, VA
#39
Did the dealer find your tune or did they not care?

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
Returned to stock for a bit more than a week. They do know I am tuned, but generally don’t give me a hard time if I return to stock and don’t make it obvious. I treat my vehicles well, and do most of my maintenance at the dealership. The relationship is what matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

UNBROKEN

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,055
Reactions
2,192
Location
Houston, TX, USA
#40
I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
I use my old X4 regularly to do a KAM reset.
 


Top